Dialogue with the founder of Midjourney: 11 people can change the world, Midjourney is a new paradigm for the organization of startups in the AI era, and more companies like this will emerge in the next five years

Author: Founder Park

Original title: Dialogue with the founder of Midjourney: pictures are only the first step, AI will revolutionize learning, creativity and organization

Midjourney is an amazing company where 11 people change the world and create great products.

Destined to be the story of Pre AGI's early years.

"I never wanted a company, I wanted a home."

At the Zhiyuan Conference, we had a conversation with David Holz, the founder of Midjourney.

MidJourney is currently the hottest image generation engine. Under the fierce competition of OpenAI's DALL·E 2 and the open source model Stable Diffusion, it still maintains an absolute lead in various style generation effects.

The following is the full text of the conversation, edited by Founder Park.

01 Entrepreneurial driving force, liberating human imagination

Zhang Peng

In the past 20 years, I have met many entrepreneurs in China and abroad. I found that they have something in common. They all have a strong drive to explore and create "out of nothing".

I was wondering, when you started MidJourney, what was your driving force? At that moment, what are you longing for?

David Wood

It never occurred to me to start a company. I just want a "home".

I hope that in the next 10 or 20 years, here at Midjourney, I can create things that I really care about and really want to bring to this world.

I often think about various problems. Maybe I can't solve every problem, but I can try to make everyone more able to solve problems.

So I try to think about how to solve it, how to create something. In my opinion, this can be boiled down to three points. First, we must reflect on ourselves: what do we want? What exactly is the problem?

Then we have to imagine: where are we headed? What are the possibilities?

In the end, we must coordinate with each other and collaborate with others to achieve what we imagine.

I think there's a huge opportunity in AI to bring those three parts together and create significant infrastructure that makes us better at solving this problem. In a way, AI should be able to help us reflect on ourselves, better imagine our future directions, help us better find each other and collaborate.

We can do these things together and fuse them into some sort of single framework. I think it's going to change the way we create things and solve problems. This is the big thing I want to do.

I think image generation (which we did first) can be confusing at times, but image generation is a recognized concept in many ways. Midjourney has become a super-imaginative collection of millions of people exploring the possibilities of this space.

In the coming years, there will be opportunities for more visual and artistic explorations than may be possible in all previous historical explorations combined.

This doesn't solve all the problems we face, but I think it's a test, an experiment. If we can complete this exploration of the visual field, then we can also do it in other things. All other things that require us to explore and think together, I think can be solved in a similar way.

So when I thought about how to start solving this problem, we had a lot of ideas, we built a lot of prototypes, but suddenly there was a breakthrough in the field of AI, especially in vision, and we realized that this was a unique opportunity to be able to Create something that no one else has tried before. It made us want to try it.

We think maybe it won't be too long before it all comes together to form something very special. This is just the beginning.

Zhang Peng

So, the picture (generation) is just the first step, your ultimate goal is to unleash the human imagination. Is this what drew you to Midjourney?

David Wood

I really like imaginative things. I also hope that the world can have more creativity.

It's so fun to see crazy ideas every day.

02 Continuous entrepreneurial experience, how to better start a business

Zhang Peng

A lot of people first meet you not through Midjourney, but through Leap Motion (David's last startup).

I feel very strongly that there might be some connection between the two programs for you, whether it's drive or mindset, I don't know if I understand it correctly. But what I want to ask is, did your experience at Leap Motion help you start Midjourney?

David Wood

In many ways, I learned a lot from Leap Motion, such as how to form large research teams, how to solve problems that no one has solved before, and how to think deeply about how people interact with technology.

Not just thinking about speed, cost, and scale, but thinking about how we can collaborate and move forward together. This is very important, and it's one of the core ideas of Leap Motion.

There are some similarities between the two, like Leap Motion, which grew rapidly and captured everyone's imagination, and I think Midjourney is similar.

But I think there are some real differences as well, and in Leap Motion, we spent a lot of time building out the early ecosystem.

In Silicon Valley, there was this belief that you should build an ecosystem first, like the iPhone. But I think what we learned together is that maybe you start by building a really good product that people love. Then, when you're finished with that product, you can start working on building the ecosystem.

For a lot of entrepreneurs, building an ecosystem early on can be a distraction, and it was the same for me. So what Midjourney did differently was to focus on building something that really everyone could use.

I used to judge my ability by "can I do it by myself". My dad is a surgeon and he can do it. We have dexterous hands.

But now I'm thinking more, will truck drivers like to use Midjourney? There are a lot of truckers playing Midjourney, which to me is so cool, it means we're doing better.

03 Re-understand knowledge, historical knowledge becomes the power of creation

Zhang Peng

It's interesting. We usually say empty words, show me your code (Idea is cheap, show me the code). But right now, ideas seem to be the only thing that matters.

As long as you can express your ideas through a series of excellent words, AI can help you realize them. So, are the definitions of learning and creativity changing? What do you think?

David Wood

I think one of the interesting things is that when you give people more time to be creative, they are also more interested in learning itself.

For example, there is a very popular art style in the United States called Art Deco. I never cared about what this kind of art is, until one day, when I could make works of this kind of art style through instructions, I suddenly became very interested in it and wanted to know more about its history.

I think it's interesting that we're more interested in history when it becomes something you can use immediately and make it easier for you to create.

If the user interface becomes good enough, users will feel that AI has become an extension of our thinking. AI is like a part of our body and mind, and AI is closely connected to history to a certain extent, and we will also be closely connected to history. This is so interesting.

When we ask our users what they want most, the number one and second answer is that they want learning materials, not just how to use tools, but art, history, camera lenses, brilliance, Want to understand and master all the knowledge and concepts available to create.

Previously, knowledge was just past history, but now, knowledge is the power to create.

Knowledge can play a greater role immediately, and people are eager to acquire more knowledge. That's pretty cool.

04 Facing panic, being open to thinking about your abilities

Zhang Peng

In China, your users come from many different backgrounds, and they may have different levels of artistic ability. Users like me are still trying to make better pictures, but I've heard that many painters and designers are worried that they will be replaced by AI.

What can Midjourney do to ensure everyone is empowered by AI, not confused or marginalized?

David Wood

For those who have not yet begun their artistic journey, Midjourney offers a unique opportunity.

You start thinking: what do I like? What is my aesthetic? What do I think is beautiful?

It might have taken a professional artist decades to do it, but now everyone can do it. We've found that people reflect deeply, it's almost like art therapy, and it makes people think about their life, the challenges they've faced, the good or bad things that might have happened, and it's very rewarding.

I think most people who use it have these personal experiences, it's not competitive or commercial. We've found that most people use it for their own entertainment. They won't even share the pictures they generate.

But in the professional world, it becomes an amplifier that enhances your creativity, and now you can create comics, movies or video games.

If you're an ordinary person thinking about beauty in your life for the first time, an artist is probably thinking now, how to create whole worlds and stories about the universe. They've never been able to do it before.

Thus, it pushes the boundaries of creativity for everyone.

Ordinary people have more abilities, and professionals have more abilities. Sometimes it's hard to realize this because user interfaces are so simple these days. But they can become more complex, powerful, and have many functions, and those functions will appear later.

05The charm of AIGC is the charm of art

Zhang Peng

Maybe AI is not just used to process a picture, it can help people deal with more complex work. Because in the past, when we talked about creativity, there were many factors involved. Is there a desire to create? What kind of ideas to create? It also requires the ability to act, to execute it to make it a reality.

But sometimes, if you can unleash creative desires, great ideas, and complex things, AI can help you. This may be the power that AI can provide people, not just images. Right?

David Wood

It's a very personal process that requires reflection, and we don't know it at first.

At first, I looked at these images (generated by people) and didn't understand what they were trying to do.

Someone generated a picture of a dog in heaven.

I asked him why he made a picture of a dog in heaven? He said it was because his dog had just passed away.

I feel sad. He said it (picture) made him feel better.

People use it almost like art therapy. They ponder things, reflect on their lives, and try to figure out who they are. I think it's very personal and very important, and it's something that, in some human history, most people haven't had the opportunity to do. Only a very small number of people have the opportunity to do so.

I think it's so beautiful that it's possible for everyone to be able to do that.

Zhang Peng

Yes, Midjourney is not just a tool in our business or workflow, it has become a new element in our life.

0611 people legend, there will be more in the next five years

Zhang Peng

What makes Midjourney so great is that it brings amazing technology to 10 million people. And I know your team is only 20 people, up from 11 a few months ago. You don't have a sales team, you don't have a marketing team, and some of them are students.

I'm curious, is this a new paradigm for how startups are organized in the age of AI?

David Wood

I think there will be in the future.

We are indeed relatively early (to adopt this type of organizational form). We also have some advantages, such as I have a lot of experience in building teams, my reputation is also good, I can get a lot of computing power, and we started doing it a long time ago.

Some ordinary startups may not have these.

But I think in a few years, as people learn how to build research teams, as the pressure on computing power becomes less and less, as people become more and more aware of how to build good AI products, I think we will see a lot of Such a company. We may be the first company to do this, but maybe in 5 years this will be a very common pattern.

07**General vs vertical, what will MJ become in the AGI era? **

Zhang Peng

Are you worried that what Midjourney is doing today will one day be covered by the development of AGI capabilities? what happens?

What is the future of a vertical like Midjourney?

David Wood

I have no idea. This is a big mystery.

One of the ways that we might work with other labs, we make the eyes, they make the ears, we make the different parts and then put them together. This can happen.

We create the imagination, they make the language parts, and we put them together. So we're going to work on that together.

There's also the possibility that there are these AGIs that are good at almost everything, but also have these parts that are specialized. There are still many professionals in the world.

I also think there's potentially a lot of human interface issues, not just about making beautiful pictures, but about helping a person explore who they are, and what they want.

This is not an AGI question, but more about how to interact with people.

The best user interface, if only language, then AGI may ask us questions. But actually the user interface is not just language, it will show you many pictures and try to understand people differently, it will be a whole new art, a whole new theory of understanding people, AI will try to help them figure it out what they want.

We haven't thought of that yet. AGI can do everything, but I also think that in most cases like the future, there may still be a lot of specialization.

08 The power of the community, explore AI Copilot together

Zhang Peng

Do you think Midjourney will always be a vertical product, or can it be some generic product?

You've said that your mission is to solve the problem of the human conscious imagination, not just about pictures.

David Wood

There are some very interesting things we are doing community, how to let a group of people explore a large space together.

We're trying to create something like that, and in the next year or two, Midjourney will probably be the place for almost all visual exploration in the world, so I think there's something really interesting about that.

Even if we never did anything else, if we were just a place for all the visual exploration in the world, I think it would be a business, but I think no matter what we do, visual exploration would apply to other fields.

Trying to create these supermind teams of millions of people to solve problems together is very interesting. I don't think any one AGI will be able to replace millions of people, but I think there may be AI involved, there may be millions of people working with millions of AIs, but I think there will be many agents and many parties, I think everyone's point of view is different, which helps to understand the problem.

Zhang Peng

Many people, what we call AI practitioners, are very concerned about their products being replaced by new technologies.

Do you share the same fear that what Midjourney does today will one day be replaced by developing AGI capabilities?

What might the future of vertical products like Midjourney look like?

David Wood

Finding something of value or a problem worth solving and staying focused while keeping an open mind is one aspect of solving this problem.

On the other hand, the created AGI technologies or products will still live in the same society as us. We can use AI to continuously create new things, and we can define how AI will interact with us in this society. Collaborate to create.

This is what we are doing, let everyone explore and create together.

Now in a visual way, in some ways, it's very primitive, but in other ways, it's probably the best way to test it, because you can see everything.

You can really see it. And if we did it with poetry, I think it would be just as interesting, but kind of hard to follow. Or if we do it with an engine or any other science, you can't be a scientist, we can't find a million scientists, but a million people making pictures is easy to find.

Therefore, here is more to consider what the mind of AI + human society as a whole should look like. In most cases now, humans use AI to create, but I think that in the future, AI can think and create together with humans, which will be very interesting. Maybe at some point, we won't even be able to detect whether an idea comes from a human or an AI.

09 Competitiveness is too strong, it is the weakness of human nature

Zhang Peng

Of course, there has been a lot of concern and concern lately about AI safety and competition at all levels. At the same time, challenges remain in continuing to scale up and improve current large models. How do you see the future development of the field of AI?

How would you balance different viewpoints, or even the interests of different governments?

David Wood

First of all, I think one of the weaknesses of human nature may be that it is too competitive.

The reality is that there are many opportunities and challenges in this world, and it can even be said that there are as many opportunities as there are problems and challenges. There are so many opportunities before us that sometimes we don't even have to compete for them.

So, for me, I don't think about who I'm competing with. There are so many things to do in this world. I just try to create something that I think is beautiful and amazing.

When I was in China, I found that everyone was always collaborating in unity. From a certain point of view, this method is somewhat similar to the principle of artificial intelligence.

Because it is also a very community-based thing, it learns from us, and then it will feed back to us the abilities it has learned from us. It's a very community-based and collaborative approach.

I think competition is sometimes not a good thing, and sometimes even saying "want to be the best in a certain direction" also violates the essence of technology itself to some extent.

Besides, we can also learn a lot from Eastern culture. Where I am, people worry about whether the technology and AI are good enough to feel trusted. But on the other hand, everyone hopes that the world can be more intelligent, so that it can help us create and solve more problems.

I found that when I was in China, people thought you were cool because of the creative geek stuff you did and wanted to be cool like you too.

Now that everyone knows how powerful AI is, we can work together to provide everyone with infrastructure capabilities to build our living environment.

1010 years later, a magical future

Zhang Peng

Last question, if we look ahead to the digital world 10 years into the future, what do you think will inevitably change in the human world today?

David Wood

I think the creativity of one person in ten years may be more powerful than a group of people today, so when they come together, they will be able to do things that we can't imagine now.

These forces will create a better world.

Everyone's beautiful imagination of the future will connect everyone closely to some extent, so that we are no longer afraid of the future, but more excited about the arrival of the future.

An amazing future surely awaits us ahead, and (I hope) it's full of goodness, so having this in mind is the best way to finally realize that good world. Of course, there are some things that I can't fully understand and think about, but (for the future 10 years later) I think this should feel like this.

Zhang Peng

I share your thoughts.

There are indeed many good things waiting for us to make them happen in the future. At the same time, when we move forward, we must also consider how to prevent those bad things from happening. Chatting with you today was very rewarding, thank you so much for sharing!